Craig Johnson Interview

Craig Johnson, the director of films including Alex Strangelove for Netflix, The Skeleton Twins (starring Bill Hader and Kristin Wiig), and Wilson (starring Woody Harrelson, Judy Greer and Laura Dern), discusses his approach to the directing craft: "Your job is making every person that you're working with feel like their job is the most important on set." 

00:00 - Introductions
02:24 - Pre-production
15:30 - Production
38:30 - Post-production

You can also check out the video of the interview on Youtube: 
https://youtu.be/C7P46X7xdMg

Chapters

• 0:00 Introductions
• 2:24 Pre-production
• 15:30 Production
• 38:30 Post-production

Transcript

[music]

Rachel Carey: This is The Film Director's Craft, and it is a discussion about really hands-on filmmaking techniques with current filmmakers. I have Craig Johnson to discuss things with today. I'm completely thrilled about that, because part of the purpose of this is to talk to people who both really make wonderful work but also who have a nice healthy on-set technique, and I got to work on one of Craig's first films in film school. I can verify that he does really nice healthy collaborative work with his actors and his crew and so on. I am excited to talk about it and thank you so much for agreeing to talk about your craft a little bit.

Craig Johnson: My pleasure.

Rachel: I will give a little bit of background in case anyone who listens to this doesn't know Craig's work because it is absolutely fantastic. You directed films including True Adolescents with Mark Duplass and The Skeleton Twins with Bill Hader and Kristen Wiig, and Wilson with Woody Harrelson and Laura Dern, and Judy Greer who is always fantastic. You also did Alex Strangelove for Netflix which is a queer-themed, very sweet coming-of-age comedy.

Your films tend to be really funny but also heartfelt and they deal a lot with people who feel like outsiders who are trying to figure out their identity. Many of them are queer-themed, a number of them are in one way or another coming-of-age, although not all of your work is. Arguably Wilson, which is delightful, is about an adult figuring out how to be an adult. Those are some of Craig's themes. They're fantastic and all worth seeing. I hope people will check them out. I'm going to ask him in a little bit about his new project because I want to hear about that too

Thank you again for being willing to just talk about how you make your films because I would be happy to spend the whole time talking about the content but that is what most people generally get asked. I actually want to get into the nerdy stuff about how you make stuff that is really useful, I think, for young filmmakers and doesn't get asked as often. Let me just jump right in if that's okay.

Craig: Yes. Bring it on.

Rachel: Awesome. You write some of your own stuff. Sometimes, as in the case of some of your TV directing work -- you did Minx, I know which I love, it's a great show, and Gossip Girl and Special -- you also sometimes just direct other screenwriters work, even in features, including Daniel Clowes who's a fantastic screenwriter.

At a certain point, you put on your director's hat and you start really thinking about the film like a director and getting into that headspace as opposed to when you're trying to finance or whatever. When you do that, what are some of the tools you find that are useful for just getting into thinking about it from that perspective? Maybe do you collect images, do you listen to the script, what do you do that's helpful to you?

Craig: Well, a big part of the process is getting to the point where you feel like "Okay, this movie is actually going to happen," and it's usually years from when you first either wrote the script or maybe even encountered the script. If it's something I didn't write, if it's something I was sent by producers or studio, there's this whole process of reading it, just getting excited about the story, and then it's like, "So what's the plan?" Usually, it takes a long time.

I try not to-- I can't help it but I start thinking about how I would direct it. But in the hopes of not getting heartbroken, because so many projects fall apart, I usually don't start thinking about it too much until it starts looking it's really going to happen. That's just self-preservation because the film industry is brutal, movies that even feel they're going to happen can fall apart at any stage of the game. The old saying is, “We're not making this movie till I'm on set day one, actually directing it.” Then sometimes that can fall apart. That would be a real, that would be a big disaster.

Anyway, when I'm ready to start thinking about it as a director, I will just read through the script and do something just very simple which is just try to see it playing as a movie. I just try to-- It's literally vision, your vision for it. What am I watching if I'm sitting there and watching the movie and immediately things come to mind, shots come to mind, where we might cut, where part of the script might go away, how I might direct -- and think, "Oh wow, this could really play out in a oner or with a steady cam." I will file that in the back of my brain.

Everything is valid at this point. It's just just my brain firing with ideas. Sometimes I'll jot notes, sometimes I'll just read it and just try to really see it. Then I'll definitely do more of a read-through and just jot a bunch of notes down. Sometimes I'll print out the script and write down thoughts. Sometimes I'll just keep a notes document of how I'm starting to see things.

Generally, once I do that first initial read-through, even if I don't jot down one thing, things start firing, it starts getting solidified in my head, and then I'm just like all right, now let the collaboration begin. Let's start putting together the team, the department heads, actors actors actors. Sometimes there's actors attached when a project comes to me, that's one of the first steps is really thinking about who these actors could be and that's, that's stage one.

Rachel: That's stage one. Let me ask about the creative team first because I find this really interesting. We're talking about the DP, we're talking about production design, costume design. What are you looking for when you start talking to people about those roles and in particular I'm wondering, do you have an example of a time where you had a meeting with somebody and you knew they were definitely the right person for this because they brought this to it.

Craig: The short answer is yes. I go very intuitively. I like to, when I meet with department heads, even if I have in my brain, "This is the person," I tend to meet with three, four, five others just to do some comparing and contrasting. Sometimes I'm surprised. Somebody, sometimes someone will come out of the woodwork that I was like "oh my gosh, wow, no, this is the person." I look for not only just an understanding of the script from a story perspective and character perspective but just a vibe, just a mood and a vibe. Certainly with the production designer. I just did a movie that -- the movie I just shot is this big horror comedy for a studio. Because it was a weird genre mash-up, tone was really important.

When I was talking to department heads, I was looking for people that just got the tone. I'm looking for people often who have a sense of humor no matter what I do. I would say almost everything I do has a comedic element to it, even though there's a lot of drama. I look for funny people as my department heads, I look for funny people often in my actors. I love actors that come from a comedy background, even if it's drama.

Then this horror comedy I just did, we were bringing in, talking to production designers and people would come in with all these photo real -- photographs that were torn from catalogs and here's what the inside -- it all takes place in one house, a haunted house movie and what the house could be, what the house could be. Then I talked to this one guy who just brought in hysterical images of like, it takes place during a snowstorm and one of them was this snowman, a painting of a snowman on fire in front of this weird house. Another ones were just funny things from the '80s. There's a sequence that takes place in the '80s.

It was just so much more of a vibe feeling and a sense of humor to it that I was like, "This is the guy. He just gets the vibe." I know he can build a haunted house. He's done a-- has a lot of great credits. I want someone who gets the sense of humor of it, who gets the quirkiness of it.

Rachel: Probably the more precise your tone, the more that becomes really critical that somebody is operating in the same movie that you are.

Craig: Yes. Very much so.

Rachel: That totally makes sense. Let me ask about casting the, similar to vibe. I feel with a lot of the films that I've had experience with, there's two sets of casting, which maybe not everyone knows. There's the offers, where you aren't necessarily auditioning somebody, they're a well-known talent and so you're having a discussion with them. Then there are the people you're actually in the room with… you're seeing five different grocery cashiers or whatever.

Let's talk about the grocery cashier style one where it's a smaller role. They're not the super name talent who may have come already attached. Is there something you do when you're auditioning people just to make them more comfortable in the room, to establish that it's a comedy? Do you have any techniques, you may not but do you have a way that you handle those?

Craig: It is such an in-and-out process. It really can be in an assembly line for especially when we start getting into these smaller roles. Now in the age of COVID too, for better or worse, almost all of these are now over Zoom and self-tapes that come in. Often for when you get these smaller roles, your casting director will just put up a link, and here are the 10 people that read for the cashier, and here are the 10 people that-- Then often the key with those is I can almost tell instantly off the read like, "Oh, this is the person."

Also, I think a key to casting these smaller roles is you're looking for somebody, even if it's one line, that is just bringing a perspective on it. It's just twisting things in a unique way or in a different way because you're assembling a whole puzzle. You're not just casting one role. It's like a larger canvas that you, that you're painting. You think about who your other small roles are. You think about who that person is interacting with in the scene and that affects it. You're thinking about certain degrees of diversity and all that stuff as well. 

You're really trying to think big picture, but when it comes to these, like if somebody's there and they've just got-- Oh, these poor actors, my heart goes out to actors. They're going to show up and they're going to just literally have-- There's this great show, The Other Two. I don't know if you know it, but one of the characters is a struggling actor. I think the first time you see him, he's like,"Hello, my name is Jim and I will be reading for a man who farts at party," and that's exactly what it's like for these--

Rachel: I think your point there if any actors hear it, is make a choice. Which I feel the same way about that. I will always respect somebody who's like, “I came in and I went with this. I think this is right,” and that's more fun than somebody who tries to exactly play to the middle, and you're not sure what they feel about the role at all.

Craig: Exactly. Always come in with a perspective on it. Always come in with just a unique twist. It might not be what I'm looking for, but that's up to the gods. Who knows?

Rachel: That's super helpful. How about if you have to have a conversation, which I've had to do, with like a name actor for a role and how do you prepare for a conversation where you know that they have a lot of experience, they may be fantastic. You have some experience too, but are you looking for-- I'm sure it's all of it, but are you looking for, how well do I get along with them? Are we seeing the same movie in our head? Are you pitching the story? How do you think about those discussions?

Craig: All of the above, what you just said. If you get to the point where you are meeting with an actor, they've usually read the script and they usually are interested in it on some level. That's why you're meeting. Often if it gets to the point of when you're meeting, you're hopefully in a seal-the-deal situation. You're meeting because you are, it's a date, it's a date, and you're really looking at chemistry. You're looking if you're vibing personally, but I'm certainly looking for what their read is on the character as well, and if it isn't exactly aligned with mine, hopefully then we can start a conversation and find some middle ground and then be off to the races.

Rachel: That's awesome. How about do you do any kind of rehearsal, and this is very much a dependent on the project and budget question, but before you get to the shoot, have you had the opportunity to do that? If so, what do you find useful to do?

Craig: It is a case-by-case situation. Every movie sort of dictates a little bit of its own method. I usually don't rehearse usually for various reasons, sometimes it's just time. Usually you don't have time, usually they don't, you don't get actors until right before, especially if they're actors you've heard of.

But for example, in my very, very first film, a movie called True Adolescents, which was my thesis film for film school actually, Rachel and I went to film school together. I knew that two of the leads, there were three leads. One was Mark Duplass, but the other two were 14-year-old kids. I knew, and it was about… Mark Duplass takes these kids on a hike and they get lost in the woods and it becomes a sort of funny male bonding thing. I knew that I wanted -- and these two kids are supposed to be best friends -- I wanted to have like a week with the kids and Mark prior to shooting for us just to hang out. We did that. The kids showed up, we shot in Washington State. We all went on a hike together. We all just started, we rehearsed some of the scenes in a park and this was less for like let's rehearse and block the scenes and more for just like, let's get used to each other and let's get these two young guys to get to know each other. They're supposed to be best friends. They've never met each other before, and then also they could connect with Mark and bond with Mark because Mark really ends up being older brother, father figure in the movie.

Rehearsal was critical for that one. God, Skeleton Twins, Wilson, Alex Strangelove. No, this last one really was what there wasn't rehearsal. There's always conversations I have with the actors. Always, always, always we'll sit down. We will go through the script, sometimes I'll go through the script with the whole cast, if we can get them around. This last one was a studio movie so we did a whole Zoom read-through of the script for the studio, which is a studio movie thing. Yes. That's just, so the studio heads can weigh in last minute on often script stuff or if they have thoughts on the actors we've already cast, there's not what you can do at that point because you're ready to shoot.

Rachel: That's really interesting. All right. Let's move on to production then. The answer for me to this question would be no, but I'm curious if you have anything. When you're -- one of the things I'm interested in about film directing is it's a leadership role. I feel like we didn't get MBAs and we got very little training on how to actually be good leaders and sometimes I think that's a gap in the way that film directors are trained. I'm going to just ask some, how do you think about setting the tone on the set for pulling everyone in the same direction? Is there something you do on the first day? Do you introduce yourself to the crew? How do you establish, Hey, we're here, we're making a thing. This is our goal is to work together on it and create that atmosphere.

Craig: The shortest answer is you just have to have the intuitive personality for that. My joke is at film school, they should teach you how to have -- direct movies and have a vision and know how to move the camera and work with actors, but what they don't tend to teach you and a skill set I think a director needs to have is how to marshal an army, how to be a therapist how to be a diplomat, how to be sometimes like a hostage negotiator. I went, there were 36 people in our individual film classes.

I would say, I don't know if it's the same for your class, Rachel, but there's only a handful of people per class, usually that direct feature films and continue to do a direct TV even, or have may-- That's not because, "Oh, NYU made a bad choice in who they--" It's just that the skillset it takes to be a director, vision is only a tiny part of it. I would say that most of my classmates have every bit as much of a vision and some of them are certainly more talented and have a better, more interesting vision than I do, but they don't necessarily have the skill it takes to do exactly what you're talking about. Be on set, set a tone. 

To get into that nitty gritty, I identify as amiable and collaborative. I just try to plunge right in from day one. It starts even before your first day on set, in pre-production in the production meeting. I try to approach things with a little bit of a lightness of touch, a little bit of a sense of humor. I do not micromanage. I hire department heads that I feel confident in and I let them do their thing. I let them do their thing. I think everybody appreciates that. I think a micromanaging director is not a good director and because, and tends to be that old-school control freaky thing.

You do need to be a leader-type personality and you do need to be a control freak to a certain degree, or want to drive a vision at least, but you can't -- you're never going… Relinquishing control is actually a better skill for a director then wanting to have ultimate control, relinquishing control to your department heads, relinquishing control to your actors, like taking in what your actors bringing to you. 

I just worked with this wonderful actor. We've all heard of who came in with a very different take on the character once we hired her. At first, I was a little bit like, "Oh, I'm not sure about this," but once I realized, like this was her take, yes, I'm not going to be able to swing her out of this. I was like, I'm going to embrace this take, and let's just make this the best version of this as we can. Now I'm editing the movie, I love the character. The character is one of my favorite characters in the whole movie. I think it was that relinquishing control to the actor to trust her instincts and her read on the character. It paid off in spades.

Rachel: That's fascinating actually because I was going to ask… I will get in a sec just to directing actor questions, but I also think, I wonder if there's a bit about schedule. It seems to me during pre-production is the time to have really robust conversations with people creatively, and then during the shoot, you do have to give them space too. It's probably, if you want that, if you have a micromanaging tendency, maybe it's best to do the micromanaging before the shoot. To like really sit down and creatively, talk through if you want every costume approval and to really make sure that's happening beforehand, so you don't have to do it on set.

Craig: Exactly. Oh yes, “movies made in pre-production” is the old thing that is completely true. You have to be there in a really intense creative approval capacity in pre-production. You're driving the overall vision. You have your thoughts and opinions about things.

Before you know when pre-production is on, you are flooded with thousands of questions each day from all, and you have to be able to sometimes make quick decisions or be able to if you don't know, you'll be like, unclear, give me one minute. Then you figure it out eventually, but you have to be able to-- I don't like the word multitask. I'm not a multitasker. I'm not sure I even believe that exists as a thing.

It's not a good skill set for a director and also being easily distracted is not a great characteristic for a director. Being absolutely laser focused and singularly focused is a good skill set, but then being able to shift quickly and then singularly focus here, singularly focused there, singularly focused over here, give this person all your attention, give this person all your attention, give this person-- But then I'd be able to bounce around because your job is also making every single person that you're working with feel like their job is the most important on set.

Sometimes it's true, their job, and maybe in the minute you're talking to them, it is the most important thing that has to be dealt with. That's really the attitude the director should have is that each person, their job is the most important on set because that's how they're operating. They have to operate that way otherwise they'd be bad at their jobs.

Rachel: That's a good thing. Make the person you're talking to feel like you're laser-focused on the way they're seeing the problem and so on. That's probably actually very good --

Craig: Treat it seriously and sometimes you might get your costume designer running up to you in a frizzy about certain buttons. In the back of your mind, it's like, "I don't give a shit about the buttons. The buttons look fine." But you go in and you're like, "Oh my gosh. Oh yes, you're right. No, your instinct to go with the purple and the larger size is much, much better." Then that matters. Every little bit counts, it creates this ultimate vision and it is a big deal to the costume design. I don't mean to throw a costume designer under the bus. It could be the direction, it could be the DP, it could be anyone.

Rachel: Let me ask about actors and choices and get back to that because I think that's a really interesting point. One thing I'm always curious about is sometimes you have actors who are great actors who come in with a really interesting choice that was maybe really deeply thought through or whatever but isn't quite right for what you think is the story you ought to be telling. In that case, assuming you can steer them, are you upfront? Are you like, "Hey, this is a great choice, but the story I'm telling actually needs your character to be more vulnerable." Are you that explicit or do you just try to be like, “let's try this other thing” and just guide them?

Craig: Yes. I've been in this position a couple of times. I've been in this position with lead roles before and it's a little more the latter. It's a little more because they've done work on whatever take they're bringing to it. Actors are very smart and they're very intuitive and they can pick up instantly. If they come into you and they do a take, they are hanging on your every little reaction and they can tell if my reaction is a little bit like, "Wow, okay. What an interesting take." Immediately, they know. You can't hide. I'm not a good enough actor myself to be able to fully hide, and sometimes I'll be upfront just like, “that is a slightly left-of-center point of view on it. It's really interesting. When you read the character on the page it may be feeling more like X, Y, Z.” I remember doing, there was a character, the actor came in with a very different take on it. I was like, “That's so interesting. One of the reasons I wanted to do this movie is that this character reminds me of my dad.” I started doing impressions of my dad and just, on my own-- I was a theater major. I'm not Meryl Streep but like I can get in there and do the acting thing when I need to. I just found myself doing, even just talking in my dad's voice, this is the way my dad talks. I wasn't explicitly saying, this is how you should do the role, but the actor I could just see was soaking that -- is soaking that in and soaking in my body language and the way I was using my voice. It was like giving a read on the character without giving a read on the character. But the actor without us ever acknowledging it, just absorbed it and was like, “oh, that's interesting. Let me think about that,” then came in on day one and the character was just right there so much more in line with how I saw it, and also had elements of my dad in him.

Rachel: That's a fantastic way to handle that. That's a great example. Let me ask the other actor question that I think sometimes comes up is for say a smaller role, a less experienced actor, you've cast someone, their read was great. Maybe they sent the tape, that was great and then they get to set, they're acting opposite somebody potentially really famous. They suddenly freeze up. Do you have any, like, go-to things that you use to get people who are suddenly not connected?

Craig: Yeah. This happens all the time. There are many tools in the toolbox and they're just so specific to what's going on. Often you'll get someone who freezes and they're just giving the same line reading and you try to adjust them. You try to get something different. It takes just the same thing. You can't do it. I tend to get like I just have to-- Often you don't-- Actors will go too big but in this case, I had this recently, an actor was just not giving me much of anything at all and couldn't adjust.

Then I was just like, "All right, in this next one, you are murderously angry, furious. You were so pissed it's like, they just shot your dog in front of you. Scream and yell at them." I got something slightly more than the read, but it was enough. It was enough that that worked. It needed to go to that extreme. If an actor is really doing big stuff, God, there are so many simple little things, literally asking them to do it quieter. “On this one, deliver the line as if it's a secret.” “Oh, okay.” What I want them to do is, "Oh my God, stop making it a giant cartoon. This is horrible." That's what I want to say. You can never give direction. You shouldn't give direction that's results-oriented. You should always give it something a little more active and active can be, say the line quieter, or it could be like deliver like you're delivering an intimate secret. Then what ends up happening is okay, they're not thinking they're thinking about being an intimate secret, and then suddenly it's, "Ugh. Finally, now it's down to earth. It's not a giant cartoonish."

Rachel: They've changed it from thinking about the other person to thinking about the performance…

Craig: That's exactly right. It's about you go back to -- I was a theater major and directed plays and things like that. It was always giving the actors active playable action-driven stuff. Seduce him in this next take. In this next take, you are a panther trying to find their dinner

Rachel: “As ifs” and stuff like that. Exactly. It's probably very helpful -- I think your acting experience is probably very helpful in knowing what to do and not to do as well.

Craig: It is probably the reason I'm a director. I am telling you if you want to be a director and you have not acted yourself or even taken or taken acting classes or something, you must do it. You must know what it's like to be up in front of people. You must know what it's like to be directed. You must know what it's like to have to put yourself out there.

If anything, it gives you utter respect for these actors who are just putting themselves out there. They are naked there sometimes, literally on camera and you have to know how to talk to them in ways that are not going to short circuit them or ways that are not going to-- there's a neediness that all actors have, understandably, because they're putting themselves out there in such a raw way.

Rachel: That's fantastic and very true. I think, especially just do some acting you know how hard it is, what people are doing.

Craig: I've never understood actors or directors that are intimidated by actors. You hear this all the time. A lot of actors that work in television complain about the directors. They only care about the camera. They don't know how to talk to actors. They don't like actors. I've talked to a couple of directors who are like, oh, I just don't like actors. I'm like, why the hell are you doing this then? That's all you do. That your main job is working with actors.

I happen to really love actors. They get on my nerves sometimes, I love the personalities, I love the bit, the grabbing life by the rein. A lot of actors have that. I relate to it, I wanted to be an actor for forever.

Rachel: That's also one of the reasons I created this discussion was because I feel like sometimes people do get panicked and just don't know how to approach actors. The more we talk about what the directors do, the more useful it will be. That's something I can try as opposed to panicking if something's going wrong.

Speaking of going wrong, one of the big challenges on set is how do you stay creative, when you went in with your DP to a location and you scouted it and you were like, she's going to walk in from here and we're going to get the sunlight from here, then you get there and it's rainy and the actor wants to sit, not stand or whatever. You have to completely throw out the plan. Do you have a philosophy for how you handle little and big crises as they come?

Craig: No. It happens every day there's something like that. Sometimes it's big sometimes it's little, I believe in when you go in with a blocking plan for a scene or you go in with a shot list -- I do believe in making shot lists and in pre-production I do believe in really talking through each scene with your DP -- but with a certain amount of looseness and openness knowing that things are going to change the second you get the real actors there and if you didn't rehearse and the second you start blocking out the scene, the actors are going to want to do something different or they're going to be like what I need to hold this frying pan. I would need to be over by the oven if I'm doing this.

You have to know intuitively. That makes a lot of natural sense the blocking comes from the characters and the actors are going to bring something to that. You can have your basic blueprint of how you've talked with your DP and a good DP will be able to be nimble and adjust because it'll always change once you block the scene out a little bit and that'll change your shot list and that'll change the way you do it and often it's for the better.

Rachel: They know what the character's head is better than you do at that point.

Craig: They absolutely do. There's one huge scene in this movie, I just shot. It's like a 12-page dialogue scene. That was all supposed to be just sitting at a kitchen table, it's the scene. I'll say it's Parker Posey was the actor and the whole scene. It's 12 pages of just this conversation at a table with her and two people.

When we started talking about it, Parker who is wildly, wonderfully creative and comes in with a thousand different incredible ideas, just had a whole blocking. She was not going to be at that table. She was going to be moving through the house and in the kitchen and crossing from here to there. My DP and I are like, oh my God, how are we going to shoot? Every time you're blocking, you're changing eye-lines, that's new setups. It's a whole thing. It just expands your day.

I think we maybe whittled it down a little bit from what Parker ultimately wanted to do, but oh my God, the scene is so alive now. It's so much better due to everything that Parker wanted to do. It was motivated. It was all motivated by what the character was going through at the moment and it's bene, one of the benefits of having a very seasoned actor that you're working with.

Rachel: Is that they have an intuitive sense of bringing really good stuff?

Craig: Exactly.

Rachel: This is a obscure question a little bit, but is there anything from film school, which we did together, or just from your perception that you thought directing was that you realized it was not? Like something you had to unlearn or that you were taught to do that you decided you didn't want to do? I always feel like storyboarding was like that for me, where I ended up being I'm not a, storyboarder really for most projects.

Craig: I've learned that I-- Storyboard is helpful for very specific scenes, usually action sequences, montages that are very shot driven, but I tend to do that. I've probably storyboarded maybe one scene on each movie. This last movie I did, which had way more action and a big finale -- 

Rachel: If you have a car wreck, it's probably a good idea.

Craig: We did much more storyboarding on this last movie I did than I had ever done before, and it was so helpful. We actually had in a few sequences, the storyboards while I was shooting just up on this huge board on set that we just crossed them off as we went through. It was so, so, so helpful to do. Gosh I remember doing a short film. I think it was with the one... Did you work on my one that I acted in that was?

Rachel: Yes, I did. it was great --

Craig: -- about the couple coming back from Hawaii.

Rachel: Yes, with the snow globe, I remember it vividly.

Craig: The snow globe! Funnily enough, there's a snow globe in my new movie. It's the first time I've used the snow globe since that one. I was acting in the short film that Rachel worked on a thousand years ago in film school but I was also directing, and I remember at one point I wanted an emotional read from an actor. Here I was in character, but also directing. I started speaking to her from the character and I started doing this whole big emotional improvisation scene.

I remember she was freaked out by it because it was a little weird and method-y, and didn't really give me what I was looking for. I was like, "That didn't work." I realized like whatever I was doing, which was really spontaneous at the time was just a little too-- It freaked out the actor more than helped them. It was a little too coming from some weird method-y thing I was trying to get them emotional. 

I'm not a manipulative director. I wouldn't pull someone aside and say you need to think right now about the most horrific thing that's ever happened to you. If nothing bad has happened to you, invent something. That's what I want you-- I don't want to fuck with people in that sense or screw with their minds.

If emotion is authentic and it's -- if you're doing an emotional scene, hopefully, the actors prepared a little bit and, and you can get there and you can get there usually just by simply just letting them go, giving them the space for it reminding them what the stakes are of the actual scene rather than some deep psychological thing whatever I was doing on set at that time, and I'm not even sure I knew what I was doing. It felt a little too weird and manipulative.

Rachel: That's a really great point. As you said, the stakes, if you can be really precise about the stakes, because if there are no stakes, it's actually a script problem.

Craig: I cannot tell you, I've learned if you do not go into your movie with a really solid script that really holds water and the scaffolding is there… it doesn't have to be perfect, but it needs to be there structurally. You are just going to be in great shape.

If there -- if you're not feeling good about the script, if it's rushed, your life will be hell. It will be hell on set. It'll be hell in the edit. You'll just constantly be trying to like plug holes in this like that's breaking rather than making this thing. Movies are hard to make with the best script. Even with the best script, you're still fixing problems that happened and things you didn't get on set it's, but oh my God, at least you've got the scaffolding. Going in with a solid script is worth its weight. This movie I just did I feel had such a great script and it's just paying off dividends now that we're editing. We don't have some of the major problems that you have if the script isn't quite working.

Rachel: The structure is there for the story. Let me ask about editing then and we'll talk a little bit about post. One of the challenges in editing, you usually you're working with an editor and they're bringing you stuff and you're responding, but you also have to watch your own movie over and over again and try to see it like an audience member sitting down for the first time. Do you have any strategies you use for clearing your head and coming to it fresh every time you watch a scene or a segment?

Craig: It's literally impossible to do that. You almost have to unburden yourself from that. When you're editing, you are tinkering in doing, you need to remind yourself that this is a big picture thing and you need to remind yourself, it's very easy to get into fine cutting and pacing, cutting because it's so satisfying to pace up a scene or to land a joke.

You got to do all that stuff too, but one of the first passes, first few passes your first month or two in the edit, you need to be making, sitting back and saying are the character arcs working? The characters working as a whole? Is there a larger thematic thing that's happening? Are we feeling anything? If we're not feeling something, why not? Stories stuff here and there.

Inevitably you will get lost in the woods and inevitably you just, it will be impossible to tell anymore or see it from the perspective of an audience. Even if you watch back the whole thing and you're like, "Huh, I think it works." I highly advocate doing lots of screenings during your edit. Small screenings, 10 people, maybe. Screenings for people that are not your friends, and are not working, that doesn't work in film at all. That's major.

Do feedback screenings. They're the most brutal thing a director goes through. They're very painful because you screen your movie, and then you just hear from everybody about what's not working in it, but they ultimately, are very helpful. Having an audience of 30, or 40 people who are just moviegoers, can be very, very helpful.

I think they take it to an extreme sometimes, in the studio system, they put so much stock in these test audiences, and they fill out cards, and how did your movie rate? Ugh, that can be agonizing, but if you're working at all with the genre, if you're working in comedy, if you're working in horror, I'm doing a comedy horror right now, putting it in front of an audience is mission critical, because, oh, they laugh there, they didn't laugh there. Maybe, that joke doesn't work, or they were scared at this point, but they were just confused about this other thing that was supposed to be scary. Can be helpful in those senses, but yes. Screening for audiences, that's how you remind yourself what's working, and not working in movies.

Rachel: Yes. Let me ask about composers too, because I always find this tricky. When you're hiring a composer, it is a very impressionistic thing. Right? Have you found anything particularly, useful in figuring out how somebody's the right person for a project? Is it tonally, how they work? It's such a nebulous task in some ways to figure out who's right for a movie that they haven't scored yet.

Craig: Yes, it's a great question. I've worked with a composer, Nathan Larson. He's doing this new movie for me to be our third movie. He did Skeleton Twins and Alex Strangelove for me. Skeletons were our first one, and Nathan was just a recommendation from our music supervisor at the time. He had done a number of cool Indies, and he used to be in a rock band, and I just vibed with him as a person. That's so much of it's who these people are as people. If they have some decent credits, you vibe with them as people, and then if they understand the tone of the movie, [clears throat] there's not much more you can get if you've not worked with them before.

I'm at a point now, where this is my third movie with Nathan. I know him well, I know how we work together. He's never done a movie like this. The movie I'm doing, it's a studio movie. Its genre is horror comedy. Nathan's not done a movie like this before, but I know he can do it. I just know that he's talented enough, and he genre hops, and he likes these kinds of movies, and so it's going to be great.

One of the big questions for composers is the relationship to temp music that you put in. Some composers just don't want to hear it at all, some composers really do want to hear the vibe that you're going for, and are good at separating themselves from it. I think you'd have to talk to a composer. Composers, I think have very complicated relationships with temp scores as they should.

Rachel: That's a really good point just in terms of a working relationship with somebody to know how they feel about that coming in. Let me ask then about your current film that you just finished shooting. I don't know how much you can safely say about it, but can you give a sentence, or two? It sounds really fun.

Craig: Yes. it is a comedy horror, and it's about a gay couple who has planned a "meet the parents" weekend at an upstate New York Airbnb. Unfortunately, when they all arrive there, not only are the parents not getting along but the Airbnb is haunted by a homophobic poltergeist from hell. That becomes a problem for them too. Chaos ensues, and comedy and horror in equal measure ensue. It was an incredible cast. It's Brian Cox, Edie Falco, Lisa Kudrow, Parker Posey, Dean Norris, Brandon Flynn, Nik Dodani, and Vivian Bang. It's a small cast because it's seven people trapped in a house over a weekend during a snowstorm of the movie--

Rachel: It's a cabin in the woods, but--

Craig: Cabin in the woods.

Rachel: With a total spin on that.

Craig: Yes, exactly right. Haunted house movie in the new ways.

Rachel: I will keep an eye out for it. I will let everybody know...

Craig: Yes, at the very least, it'll be released on HBO Max next year. It's HBO Max New Line, Warner brothers thing, but we're hoping maybe, it goes into theaters. We'll see.

Rachel: That's becoming more, and more of a possibility after the last year.

Craig: I know. Maybe, the timing will work out for us.

Rachel: Yay, I hope it does. Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. This was super, and incredibly helpful. I'm glad you were willing to get so specific on all of this.

Craig: My pleasure. Anytime. It's really fun to talk about. It's helpful for me to talk about it too, to put this stuff into words.

Rachel: Yes. Be like, "oh, I have a process." [laughs]

Craig: I do. Yes, there there's actually, something going on behind all of this. [laughs]

Rachel: Thank you so much.

Craig: Sure. Anytime, Rachel. Thanks a lot.

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